Ontario and Alberta: Building Stronger Economic Ties with James Carpenter

Ontario and Alberta, two of Canada’s largest economies, are moving past old rivalries to forge a stronger economic partnership.

With new agreements in place, the provinces are working to break down trade barriers, recognize credentials across borders, and collaborate on energy, infrastructure, and investment.

In this episode, Alberta’s senior representative in Ottawa, James Carpenter, joins us to discuss what this new chapter means for businesses, workers, and Canada’s competitiveness on the global stage.

Transcript

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From the Toronto Region Board of Trade, this is Toronto Talks. Toronto, let's talk about how to strengthen Ontario and Alberta's economic ties and relationship. Two promises that haven't always gotten along. Swimmingly, we haven't acknowledged the fact that there's a bit of a broken relationship. With U.S. tariffs squeezing Canada's economy, it's time to look at the barriers we've built right here at home. Rules and red tape keep goods, services and workers from moving freely. It's costing us as much as $200 billion a year. Ontario and Alberta, two of Canada's biggest economies, haven't always seen eye-to-eye. Remember Alberta's ad campaign a few years back trying to lure away Ontario's workers? Hey Toronto, thinking about moving out of Ontario? you, why not consider Alberta? Alberta has thousands of jobs that we need to fill. It goes without saying, a lot has changed since those ads were released back in 2022. This summer, Ontario and Alberta signed a memorandum of understanding that promises to strengthen ties between our two provinces. A key part of the deal includes mutual recognition of goods, workers and investment. To talk more about how this will all play out over the coming months, We welcome James Carpenter to one of our recent events. James is Alberta's senior representative in Ottawa. James talked about his role and how it includes a stronger Alberta-Ontario partnership. I think we can all agree that as a nation we're facing a great amount of uncertainty when it comes to our relationship with the United States and broader geopolitical climate abroad. Our response must be to keep Canada competitive in a changing world. The decisions we make have impacts for decades to come and we must be proactive not reactive. Now, now is the time to fast track and break ground on nation building infrastructure and resource projects across energy, critical minerals, agriculture and more and to encourage job creating investment across all of our industries. To that end, Alberta and Ontario have recently signed several memorandums of understanding to strengthen our economies and the economy of Canada as a whole. Alberta and Ontario will also cooperate and advance the development of nuclear energy to support new nuclear facilities in Alberta. That's right, Alberta is looking at nuclear. Together, our provinces are pushing back against the federal policies that have stalled major projects for far too long. In 2021, over 62 billion dollars of goods and services from crude oil, natural gas, precious metals, construction materials to portfolio management, computer system design services were traded between Alberta and Ontario. And we know that that number is just growing. Our recent internal trade agreement with Ontario will make it easier for skilled trades and regulated professionals to work across the provincial borders. In addition, the agreement will allow direct consumer sales of Alberta made alcohol and Ontario made alcohol, so the Albertans can enjoy Niagara wine. My wife loves Niagara wine. It's very expensive to fly here to get it. And you can enjoy Alberta's finest ryes and whiskeys and craft beers. These are practical, concrete steps to make Alberta and Ontario the best place in Canada to invest, while securing a strong return for those provinces that choose to partner. As business leaders here, your insights and ability to turn ideas into action is exactly what this country needs. Together, we can underlock new opportunities for trade, energy security, economic growth, not just for Alberta and Ontario, but for all of Canada. So what does that look like? How can everyone work together to build a stronger Canadian economy? The board's president and CEO, Giles Gerson, sat down on stage with James for a fireside chat. Well, thank you very much, James, for those comments. And I have to say, we can thank President Trump for one thing. I think it is for pulling our nation together in a way that we haven't seen for quite some time. And I think the Ontario-Alberta axis is a really important one in Canada's economy and for the nation as a whole. Maybe you can give us a bit of a flavour of how that, from your perspective, from Alberta's perspective, How is that conversation sort of developing in Edmonton and in Calgary around this greater relationship, economic relationship between across the country, but particularly with Ontario? Oh, no, it's a great question. So for those here, you know, Alberta has been very progressive in managing the harvesting of our natural resources, working closely in Canada with other provinces and trying to create opportunities in our travels. We know that nuclear, the message around nuclear has changed in the last 10 years. We know that in our oil sands, that that'll be potentially a key to getting our carbon footprint down to neutrality by 2050. And so listening to the great Premier Ford talking about the MOUs and talking with Premier Smith about this, we're finally at a place where provinces are starting to look within. I love that the Premier brought up on-shoring and the need to work together. We're shipping oil into Ontario right now that's landing in your Sarnia refinery and creating jobs and sharing an economic wealth and opportunity. And so the mere idea that what's happened in the United States and the geopolitical environment has now created a massive opportunity for us as provinces. Yeah, it really is about on-shoring in many ways, isn't it? By bringing stuff home that we maybe have left in previous decades and now we can do for ourselves. One of the, you know, last month, Minister Hodgson, Tim Hodgson, Energy Minister, the Federal Energy Minister, announced federal funding for the carbon capture projects in Alberta. And that was a major move, it seems to me, in terms of those are, that's quite a mega project or could be a mega project over time. And it really does feel like a sign of optimism to me that the federal government is starting to get it in terms of helping develop Alberta's economy in a more vigorous way. So for those that aren't aware what carbon capture utilization storage is, underground in Alberta, we have big lakes. And they're below the rock formation. We have one that's called the Bashaw Reef. It's over 100 kilometers in length. And in these lakes, it's full of saltwater brine. and we were ahead of the head of the curve like Alberta is a leader in the world on this so much so that almost 14 years ago we identified what's called poor space so when you pull oil out and you pull gas out there's spaces left and we actually licensed the poor space and in these brine salt water lakes you'll have this water at a pressure of maybe 1500 psi so we recognize that oh my goodness, we could increase that pressure by 500 or 1000 PSI. And so what we've done is we've actually drilled into these saltwater caverns and we're pushing down the very carbon that we're capturing off the carbon trunk line in the heartland of Alberta. Now, it's interesting, Giles, because a lot of people wouldn't know this, but Alberta's invested almost $1.8 billion into this technology right now. And we've been doing it for years. Companies like Enhanced Energy, which I would encourage you to look online and you can see some great videos that explain it. These guys have been doing this for years. So the move of the energy minister is good, but it's small because we've been working on it for years and years. So we're pretty thrilled that the government is starting to recognize these opportunities that are going to allow us to harvest more oil and more gas and push the carbon down. But I just want you to really know Alberta is a leader in this technology. Alberta has been a leader in ethical harvesting, environmental concerns around oil and gas, far more than the United States and most countries around the entire world. And it's been difficult because sometimes we don't get recognized for that. Now, thinking of other things that the federal government could do, that Minister Hodgson could do, to spur the national economy, particularly when we talk about pipelines, for example, a shared Ontario and Alberta interest, to fill those pipelines, aren't we going to need the lifting of the carbon cap to get the drilling required to deliver the throughput for those pipelines? Otherwise, there won't be much point. Yeah, the emission carbons, again, the emissions cap, for those that understand, it's actually a production cap. Why? It's because we don't have the technology to get to the carbon neutrality that they require. So to get to the numbers that they require, we'd have to shut in production. And somebody's like, well, why is that a big deal, James? Well, because when you shut in an oil sand production, It could cost you hundreds of millions of dollars to shut this in. When people don't understand that in Alberta, it doesn't matter what the price of oil is. The pipe is still full. The oil has to move. We do not have storage for 4.2 million barrels a day to just pile up. So these unconstitutional laws, like the emissions cap, Bill C-69, which affects you as Ontario people, which means that you can't build more than a 20 megawatt power facility in this province without federal approval. I mean when it first came out it meant and the transportation minister is gone but the transportation minister we got together our transportation ministers because you couldn't build a highway over a certain amount of kilometers without federal approval and I would remind those folks that are here Giles is that the resources in the ground and the constitution are owned by the province you own the aluminum we own the oil and gas now as a province and many people you You'll probably hear this stuff and sometimes it gets twisted a little bit, but you need to know that as a province, we've contributed over $600 billion to Confederation. We average over $20 billion a year that we send more than we receive. Last year, the province of Quebec received $13,850,000,000. We don't have a problem with sharing. We're Canada. What we have a problem with is when our oil field workers are called dirty. When they're told that they should retool and come up with a new job. When the world is calling on Canada to step up and supply more oil and gas to the world, we have stepped back. Not Alberta. We need the energy minister and the prime minister to bring the country together right now. and remove these laws so that the business folks in this room and the business folks around the world would have restored and renewed trust in the Canadian economy. I want to switch gears. I don't have much time, but I want to switch gears very quickly to something that Alberta's done very well at, I think, which is building a future forward workforce. We've had the MOUs, we've had the Premier Ford has taken a leading role in trying to get a national labour market by signing mutual recognition agreements with a variety of provinces, including Alberta. It needs to be national. So this is, for the moment, it's a bit of a patchwork. But what we need is the ability for people to be able to move in any profession from one province to another where the jobs are without the encumbrance of local authorities holding them up. And we've got a lot of that. Now, Alberta, we had the Alberta calling campaign here in our subway a year or so ago, a couple years ago. And it was clear that it was easy to move to Alberta in almost any profession. Harder so to do from across the country and other provinces. What do you think Ontario could do to open up its labor market to other provinces in a more effective way? Well, I mean, you're already starting to. I have a 26-year-old son that has a four-year business degree and two years in computer engineering out of NAIT. Can't get a job. Can't get a job in his profession. Now, is he in Alberta or is he here? In Alberta. You know, the unemployment rate right now with youth across the country, if you Google it, it's like 14.6%, but there's places where it's as high as 20%. I was glad to hear the premier talking about the amount of jobs that we have, but I sat my son down two weeks ago So when he said, dad, my graduating class at NAIT, they discontinued the program. This is last year. They discontinued the program. No one in his class has a job. And I looked at him and I said, son, maybe you should have become an electrician because we have a massive shortage of skilled trades across this country. And Alberta's had to tool itself to attract people interprovincially to recognize already what you had for certifications. where maybe now Ontario is looking at the same things. If you want to expand in places like Darlington and do other mega projects, we're going to have to recognize these electricians and these plumbers and these welders and these fabricators and these professionals and nurses and everything else. And, you know, it was the ambassador of the EU, who's a dear friend, sat me down and said, James, there's more trade barriers in Canada than the entire EU. And I'm just thrilled that Premier Ford made it to Alberta. And Premier Ford and Premier Smith have a very good relationship and they get it. And as we want to continue to build Alberta, we've always relied on people in eastern Canada for trades and for jobs. I was born in New Brunswick. My family came west when I was a child. And I didn't understand why, but we needed to eat. Now more than ever, the idea of what's going on in America, you know, we need that trade deal. They're our biggest trading partner. But goodness sakes, it's so good to finally have the relationships coming together between provinces to remove the barriers of alcohol. I mean, the one MOU they signed is Alberta's going to look at buying Ontario fleet vehicles. Like, why did we actually have to have an MOU about fleet vehicles? We don't have the muscle memory to do these things, right? Right. Now we're building it. Right. And I think it's been one thing I would just mention, Alberta exports almost six and a half billion dollars of cattle. Most of it, the cattle has been boxed into beef and shipped across the border. We just did a study. And if we could figure out the transportation between Alberta and Ontario right now, we could export instead of it going to the United States, 30% could head into your domestic market here. I live in Ottawa. I tell you when I had to walk up to the meat manager and ask him what is this Australian beef doing here I've never seen it like it was just like this is crazy and I'm not saying that they're inferior but I'd like to think they are but I can't believe that you're paying for the freight for that to be shipped across in a boat and land in Ontario and we need to scratch our heads or stop scratching in our heads and do something about it. Hear, hear. We only had so much time on stage with James, but we had more to ask, in particular, about the elephant in the room. Alberta's premier, Daniel Smith, has mused for months about holding a referendum in her province. On the ballot, should Alberta leave Canada? Giles and James moved into our recording studio to continue that chat. You're talking a lot about the stronger relationship that we can build across the country, between provinces, but particularly between Ontario and Alberta, two provinces that haven't always gotten along swimmingly. But I think we are going to be relying on each other to a much greater degree, and I think that's very healthy for us as a country. I agree. I often use a phrase, do you have a teachable spirit? And what does that mean? Are you willing to look at data and look at new information, and are you willing to pivot, or are we going to choose hills to die on? And I think one of the things I appreciate about Premier Smith is her past as a reporter and her experience in interacting and talking about very controversial things allows her to sit down and have a rational discussion around things like nuclear, around things like steel and autos. And she's very much working hard to continue the narrative of like made in Canada. Why not? Why can't the pipes that are carrying Alberta oil being made in Ontario or with Ontario steel and whatever foundry that they get made in? And why can't, as you said to me, why can't supermarkets in Ontario be relying on Alberta beef as opposed to beef from around the world? which is Alberta beef is famous for its high quality. Why wouldn't we be eating that here as opposed to, say, from other countries? And I think we've been very lax on that. We've never had to worry about it. We've never had to worry about it. But as a result, consumers really don't know what we do. We buy stuff from Edmonton without even knowing it. Correct. I mean, Dell Chemicals is putting their facility in Edmonton. It's like one of the huge projects in our world, and they're going to pump all their carbon downhole. We have Heilberg Concrete that's looking at doing a project there as well. And people don't understand if you put all the concrete plans together in the world, they would be like the fifth largest carbon emitter in the world. But they're looking at Alberta because of carbon capture. And they're looking at Alberta because, you know, frankly, I did hear the Premier talk about corporate taxes. Alberta has the lowest corporate tax in Canada. And we're thankful that we have a lot of Ontario companies that are both in both provinces, a lot of Alberta companies that are in both provinces doing business back and forth. And I think as we, as earlier, like that whole idea of it was too easy to just do business south of the border. We want to continue to ship our oil to the United States, but we want access to two markets. And when I, you know, even speaking and being here today, like what an honour. If I had one statement to sum up the entire morning for me would be this. If the Prime Minister steps up and gets rid of these policies and these laws, the Canadian economy would be unleashed. Canada would become a superpower in energy. Tell me, or you probably know, America relies on Ontario for aluminum. There's no other, they don't have... Well, and to some degree, nickel. Yes. I mean, we have... Seven of the critical minerals in Canada. And I think that we've sold ourselves short because we're not connecting well enough. And now that door has been opened. It's kind of like we got knocked down on the field and we're now back in the locker room. And I hope that we have the coach that's going to bring it together. And then you got the captains, which are the premiers, screaming at the coach saying, we need this, this, and this to make it happen. And we got the team ready to go. And we're sitting on the sidelines. So the faster the prime minister moves, very hopeful this fall, the faster the prime minister in coming weeks moves is going to determine whether or not alberta and canada can be stronger together with ontario and it's there's a lot on the table right now well there is and as you're saying this is a kind of a special moment but you do have ontario and alberta saying very much the same thing on some of these critical policy issues so let me go to the last question which really is about the referendum that premier smith is intending to hold over the next short while, which will confront the whole issue of Alberta separation, which has been a long-standing issue. Alberta's alienation, if you will, goes back probably from the founding of the province in 1905, certainly through the 1930s. I followed it myself as someone who's lived in Alberta. And so it's a very real thing. I understand Alberta alienation and Western alienation, but here we're at a moment when we want to drive the country together and there's real prospects for doing so. Walk me through why this is the time to hold a referendum that could destabilize the country to some degree and actually make us less attractive as a place to invest where we really need investment. I would first say it's not about the premier holding a referendum. The premier is going to allow the citizens of Alberta to decide their fate. She's not going to decide the fate for them. We have laws in place that allows them to bring forward a referendum. if they choose to question Alberta's participation in Confederation. But what I would say is that the Premier's been very clear. She loves Canada. She loves Alberta. And I think when we talk about the instability, I don't know that people fully understand how frustrated Albertans and Western, a lot of Western Canadians, and the numbers in Saskatchewan are very high. It's not just Alberta. And so now more than ever, if the prime minister steps up and moves these laws and bills out of the way, it could do a lot to defuse that and defuse it. But it's unfortunate that we have such, we haven't acknowledged the fact that there's a bit of a broken relationship. And the former prime minister never acknowledged that. hopeful that Prime Minister Carney is going to step forward. He's put together a team. But I mean, again, Albertans want to be heard. They want to be, I think, respected. And as I said earlier, you know, we're not dirty oilfield workers when it's minus 40 and you're trying to stay warm in your home. And we have seen previously some supply chain issues. There was a point where when the rail strike happened just before COVID that Quebec wasn't getting propane and Alberta put together some emergency thing for propane and the need for propane. Um, I think that, um, again, people are discouraged. Uh, it doesn't help that the economy is struggling and, uh, it doesn't help that nobody's really cheered them on. And I think now is a great time to, to, to see that happen, but it is a real problem. Western alienation and separation is real and it should be taken seriously by Canadians and it should be taken seriously by the federal government. There's no joking about it. And I would say on the investment side, when Quebec went through their, their struggles, uh, yeah, there was stuff that left, uh, Quebec, but I can tell you right now, investment is pouring into Alberta and we're welcoming it because we have a low tax, because we have a pro-business province, because we offer good health care, because we offer good education, because Alberta is the land of the free. And we'll continue to stand by our oil and gas harvesting. We're going to increase production. We're going to continue to work with America and what egress ports we can rank now to continue to get our products to market. But we also have a very vibrant agriculture community. We're leading right now in value added and technology. We have 30, almost 35% of all agriculture when you include cattle. And we're very proud of our farmers. We are a diverse province and these people are just saying, we want to be heard. We do not want to be left out. Giles, those natural resources are our natural resources. That was the point. Yes. You know, and they're ours. And why is there constant government overreach? Constant. Yeah. And that needs to stop. All these things are true that you've said. I mean, I've lived in Alberta, right? And I think the prime minister understands it as well, having grown up in Edmonton. Well, it'd be very hard to miss, you know? But I think the real question is going to be, you know, matching all of those things with the other fundamental truth, which is Alberta is a part of a strong, stable country, the ninth largest economy in the world, which it contributes handsomely to, but still is one of the reasons why you're getting the investment you're getting. And there's a real, one of the worries about a referendum is the untold, is really the unforeseen consequences if it goes sideways. You know, and I think. Well, it would be very devastating for all of Canada, but Alberta is, Alberta, strong and free. So let us remain free as part of Canada. Stop the government overreach. Get rid of the bills that are constraining and crushing industry. Uh, we don't need to subsidize industry if they're allowed to, to do their job and bring the economic development and opportunities and investment. And we need the federal government to step up and that's the bottom line. And I think it's the same for Ontario. It is. Uh, you have a problem in your, your automotive industry and why would you pause the EV mandate? Why wouldn't you have just canceled it? Yep. No, I think we were all a bit surprised by that. Like why would you not just cancel it? Cancel the emissions cap. Cancel Bill C-69. Cancel the tanker ban. Cancel or reform the clean electricity regs. This has to end. Premier Smith will continue to be the champion that she is for Alberta. She's doing an amazing job championing and getting her message out. Even with America, you've seen her use diplomacy. She has said right along that diplomacy is the only route. and I'm glad that we have removed the counter tariffs. Interestingly enough, something that she was not in favour of. And I'm hopeful that the Prime Minister and LeBlanc and team can get a deal across with America. I think a deal across the line with America and the removal of these laws would change our economy overnight. You can pop popcorn and watch or you can do something about it. And I would encourage the Board of Trade that talk to your members of Parliament, talk to your local officials and send the message that we need to build baby build. because Alberta wants to drill, baby, drill. Absolutely. We want to make steel, make steel, make steel. Make steel and make oil. Thank you. To learn more about how the board is doing so much more than just watching the popcorn pop, visit bot.com and join our work. That's all for this episode of Toronto Talks. Share this episode on LinkedIn and let your followers know why they should listen. And don't forget to keep talking Toronto. Our voice drives meaningful change.