Toronto Talks

How Indigenous Businesses Are Powering Canada’s Clean Energy Future with Tabatha Bull

• The Toronto Region Board of Trade • Season 1 • Episode 13

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Canada’s clean energy future depends on more than just minerals, it needs meaningful partnerships with Indigenous communities.

In this episode, Tabatha Bull, President and CEO of the Canadian Council for Indigenous Business, explains why Indigenous-led innovation is essential to the success of Canada’s energy transition and what needs to change for that potential to be fully realized.

The Board's SVP of Marketing and Communications, Jennifer van der Valk,  and Tabatha touch on:

  • Why Indigenous equity in energy projects reduces risk and accelerates progress
  • The persistent barriers to capital, procurement, and opportunity
  • How social capital—and a single connection—can change everything
  • What every business leader can do right now to support a more inclusive economy

Tabatha also shares how CCIB’s new Connects Program is working to close the gap between Indigenous entrepreneurs and Canada’s business networks, one conversation at a time. Learn more about the program at https://www.ccab.com/connects/.

This episode is supported by Imperial. Learn more at imperialoil.ca.

After more than a century, Imperial continues to be an industry leader in applying technology and innovation to responsibly develop Canada's energy resources. Imperial strives to build strong and lasting relationships with Indigenous peoples built on mutual trust, respect and shared prosperity. This effort is grounded in a commitment to listen, understand, and collaborate as Imperial works together with Indigenous communities to develop energy solutions for future generations. Imperial's commitment is underscored by its certification through the Canadian Council for Indigenous Business, and Imperial is pleased to support this podcast with the CCIB's President and CEO. Learn more about Imperial's efforts at imperialoil.ca. From the Toronto Region Board of Trade, this is Toronto Talks. Toronto, let's talk about our clean energy transition. Nickel, lithium, copper, cobalt, manganese, we in Canada have the vital components of the clean energy revolution. It is essential that government support is given to these sectors because they're extremely difficult to decarbonize. In this episode, we're highlighting how Indigenous businesses are driving innovation, especially in the clean energy space. We'll tackle the barriers Indigenous entrepreneurs continue to face and what every business and individual can do to support an inclusive economy. Guiding us through this conversation is Tabitha Bull, the President and CEO of the Canadian Council for Indigenous Business. An electrical engineer by training, Tabitha has spent her career bridging the worlds of infrastructure, energy, and Indigenous advocacy. Tabitha recently sat down with the board's Senior Vice President of Marketing and Communications, Jennifer van der Vok. Here's their conversation. We are really excited to get this conversation going. And I hope I don't embarrass you here, but I did do a bit of snooping. And your list of personal and professional accomplishments is a mile long. Indo-Pacific Advisory Committee providing perspective on advancing Canada's goal with trade diversification and climate change. Past member of the government's COVID-19 Supply Council, CEO of the Year in 2022, as awarded by the Ontario Chamber of Commerce and their Business Achievement Awards. Catalyst CEO Advisory Board in Canada, working with some of the world's most powerful CEOs on building workplaces that work for women. A member of Queen's University, a judge on Bear's Lair, which is an Indigenous TV series. It's really incredible and very, very diverse. But you're an electrical engineer by trade. So I would love if you could tell us a journey and how you went from an engineer to a leading advocacy role as you sit in today. Sure, thank you. Yeah, it's been a crazy five years really, like in the last five years, just the opportunities that I've had and been very lucky to have. So I went into engineering with the purpose to work with Indigenous communities, my own community. My father did similar work for Ontario Hydro at the time, actually, but working with communities on settlements of past grievances of communities that have been flooded through the 50s and 60s and not worked with properly from an electricity point of view. So kind of saw that need for someone to build bridges between communities and energy sector. You know, we have so many professionals in teaching and social work and law as well in First Nation communities, but And, you know, there is a bit of a gap in, like, First Nation people who are in STEM roles. So I went into engineering with that purpose. I worked in a number of different places, and then I landed at the independent electricity system operator. And I wanted to do, like, engineering work so that I really was able to learn and build those skill sets so I would have more to bring to the table when I worked closer with communities. And then I had the opportunity the last five years of my career there to work with communities on energy projects across the province and on energy planning for their communities as well. That was the time of renewable procurement in Ontario. So also working with the government on ensuring that those programs worked for communities. It was an incredible time. I got to meet so many amazing leaders across the province. And still, when I see them today, some of them are still in leadership roles or in other roles. You know, we did a lot of work to really build strong relationships. And then I kind of got to a point where I wanted to continue to work with Indigenous communities and people and didn't feel like I could move in my career in that space. And I had always been a huge fan of what we were called CCAB at the time. I'd actually joined their board. And then a position for chief operating officer came up. And it was a big leap to go from a, you know, firstly, like, fully pensioned, very secure opportunity to a not-for-profit organization, for sure. But I wanted to do things more nationally as well and saw that there was so much opportunity in business space and in supporting Indigenous businesses and the economy. The reach and impact was probably so appealing, and that it actually sounds like your trajectory had a lot of purpose to it. It feels like this big leap, engineer, to where you are today, but it was very purposeful. Yes, and, you know, as an engineer, as we've talked, my son's in engineering now. It is an incredible, like, almost foundation to other work. So just I think I've applied a lot of the skills that I learned as an engineer to the work that I do now, and every day I continue to apply those. But I am still very, you know, one toe in the energy sector because I do believe that it is an incredible opportunity for impact for Indigenous communities across the country as well. Yeah, absolutely. And given just the pace of change and the true necessity of transformation across the sector, that opportunity for impact that comes with all that change is really powerful as well. Yeah, and the learnings too from seeing how policy was developed around energy procurement here in Ontario and how we can apply the learnings that we had then across the country and different policies being developed. And, you know, we're applying a lot of those even in just procurement in general at various levels of government and in energy projects also and infrastructure. You know, there's lots of lessons learned that we can transfer. Mm-hmm. I came from Metrolink, so yes, we have a lot of lessons learned, and there's a lot of effort happening across the entire infrastructure sector to really embrace those lessons and do better as we move forward, as we build out these huge, momentous projects and critical infrastructure, including Everything Energy. So here you are today. You lead this very critical organization, the Canadian Council for Indigenous Business. And can you tell us a bit about the mandate of your organization and some of the key priorities that you hold right now? Yeah, so we are, our mission, we're actually just celebrated our 40th anniversary last year. Our mission has always been to support growing the Indigenous economy and doing that with the support of Corporate Canada. The story goes that we were started by Murray Koffler, who, well, it was his idea, I would say, who was the founder of Shoppers Drug Mart. And he was out west looking for a new location for a hotel, actually. and there was an Indigenous family that was without a home living in this abandoned building. And then he went to one of his shoppers drug mart stores and there was an Indigenous person being falsely accused of theft. And he came back to Ontario and called some of his friends in Ottawa and said, like, what is happening? And I guess they challenged him to say, well, what are you doing as a corporate, you know, successful business leader in the country? So he gathered a number of Indigenous and non-Indigenous leaders together and talked about what they could do over a number of meetings. And they established what was then called Canadian Council for Native Business. So we've changed our name three times now. A lot around like mentorship about how do we like help support Indigenous young people to understand business and learn more about business. We had an internship program at that time, which, you know, there are some very notable Indigenous leaders who went through that internship program. Drew Hayden Taylor had an internship at CBC as an example. Okay. So our mission is still the same. We've definitely evolved and grown over time. We've always had representation in our board from Indigenous and non-Indigenous people, but we've definitely moved more to having more Indigenous representation on our board, which is very important, and across our organization as well. But very important that, you know, we're all working towards this together. And we need support of Corporate Canada, and we need support of leaders in all sectors to ensure that we can continue to grow supply chains and partnerships with Indigenous people in business. So we have a number of programs. You know, the root of all of our programs is our research. We have a team of about eight researchers who do work in partnership with government and corporations and academia on the Indigenous economy. So be that from export and trade, which we've just finished two large projects on, to future skills, Indigenous people and leadership, to specific sectoral research. We're doing some work right now on forestry. And that really informs all of the programs that we develop based on our research and understanding. research insights really inform where your priorities lie and then how you probably entice a lot of that collaboration from different sectors and private sector. Yeah, definitely. And, you know, ensuring that we're meeting the needs of Indigenous businesses where they're at. And also has definitely supported the advocacy work that we do at all levels of government. You know, being an engineer, again, one of those skills is that I am very rooted in data and the data, having that data when we're advocating for change or at government levels has been very helpful. So the research team continues to support that work, and it's been very valuable just recently having just finished two big reports on trade and the current situations that we're facing in Canada now on trade agreements. Just having that information to understand how this will impact Indigenous economies has been really helpful. So we have a number of other programs. We're very focused on procurement. We have a procurement marketplace with about 1,500 Indigenous businesses within it, and then corporations and organizations who have made commitments to purchase from Indigenous business. And then we have a program called PAIR, which is a partnership accreditation in Indigenous relations. It's kind of like a B Corp certification, but really looking at how you're working with Indigenous businesses and communities. There's almost 250 corporations in Canada that are certified or going through that process. And everything from, you know, the major banks to resource sector, but more recently, smaller businesses have also been coming wanting to understand what their role is in answering some of the truth and reconciliation calls. And we've done some work recently with TMX on looking at how those companies are performing. Oh, okay. So TMX is going through the process themselves. And we've definitely seen a 20 basis points difference in how companies that are certified in that program perform versus the remainder of the stock exchange. Oh, that's great. And so that will then lead back into that research and the insights and the evidence that you're bringing to that full spectrum of programs that you're offering. Yeah, and also really solidifies, you know, and we talk about this, you know, when we think about diversity on boards and diversity in organizations and bringing more women on boards. and the benefit that that really does lend to a business. And in talking to business leaders about why they should join CCIB, so I likely should have started that. We are a membership association and a not-for-profit. We have about 2,700 members today. But in talking to members about why it's important, sometimes you might talk to a business leader who really understands our history here in the country and believes it's important for their business to be part of reconciliation. But some people also need to know, like, what's the return on investment? So some of those conversations and the work that TMX has supported us on in that has been really helpful to those conversations as well. Yeah, I can imagine that would really just, you know, obviously like the private sector in business, they're looking to make sure that they're also successful. But I think to open their eyes and their arms to what reconciliation can mean from a mutually beneficial perspective and bringing those communities in and for you to bring that evidence and insight is probably pretty powerful for them. Yeah, and also, you know, changing the conversation, evolving the conversation to the opportunity and benefit that there is to work with Indigenous communities and businesses and partnerships on projects, on work that you're doing within your organization. It's not just about this is the right thing to do, but it also brings significant benefit. Yeah, like we've been talking about that more so lately, but also in some of our work globally on investing in Canada. And if you're investing in an infrastructure project and there's an Indigenous partner, it does definitely reduce the risk of that partner and helps to ensure that that project can move faster. We've seen projects that haven't had partners that have been delayed in then designing the project and then going to a community to look at moving forward. And so also really, the conversation is evolving too. there's significant benefits to having Indigenous business as part of your project or organization. Absolutely. So, I mean, you talked about the work that you're doing and some of the research and that's coming out of the trade side of what you're working on. So you are joining us fresh from a meeting with the U.S. Canada Council. And this is the first one being led by our newly appointed Prime Minister, Mark Carney. So I am curious to know, like coming, going into and coming out of that meeting. What are you hearing from Indigenous business right now as it relates to the quite tumultuous US-Canada relationship we're experiencing right now?- So definitely, so our initial research that we had done over the last year showed that of Indigenous businesses that do export, 19% of their revenues are going to the US.- 19.- And we definitely know Indigenous businesses much more at a higher rate of participation in some sectors that are high exports. So forestry, as an example, oil and gas, mining, you know, and those are sectors that were early movers in ensuring that they had built good relationships, but also that they procure from Indigenous business, they employ more Indigenous workers. So we're definitely watching those areas, because we do think that there's going to be a higher impact on Indigenous people and businesses, if there's an impact on the economies of those sectors. Like any business in Canada, the uncertainty right now is very difficult to navigate from your supply chain, from investment, from just making business decisions. And we had some businesses who were within the strategy plan looking to move into the U.S. as of moving into that market, and have definitely reconsidered that or are trying to get back the investment that they might have made for that decision. But, you know, a number of businesses that are working in sectors are owned by communities, Indigenous Economic Development Corporations, and revenues and profits from those businesses go back into support community and community services. So, you know, in any economic downturn, those people that are at a lower socioeconomic standing are going to be hurt more. We saw that during COVID. But specifically in some of those sectors where we know that communities are relying on that revenue, we're really watching and working with the federal government to look to ensure that there are specific supports in those areas. There's a significant economic and community ripple effect, really, from all of this that you're probably quite concerned about and your members are quite concerned about. Yes, yeah. And difficult to put a number on it of impact because of the uncertainty. Are we 25%? Are we 50%? Where are we? Maybe by the time this airs, we'll have a little more certainty, though I'm not that confident. I hope so. I mean, we're talking about it so much at the board right now. It's this, you know, how do you navigate the uncertainty? How do you move through a period where, you know, from one day to the next, what's going to happen, what decisions are going to be could dramatically impact business of all sorts across all sectors? what can be done within the span of control in the midst of that uncertainty. And so we're really trying to work with our members as well to try and figure that out. But your point about that ripple effect, that the unintended consequences, is something that we're hearing a lot as well. And I think the other piece, I mean, in any crisis, there's an opportunity. And we, you know, removing internal trade barriers is going to be significant. A number of our members, like any business, do find it easier to export to the U.S. than outside of their own province to another province. So hopeful that we'll find some movement in that. And also, you know, domestic spending, like government domestic spending. If we can continue to push for Indigenous procurement targets within federal and provincial governments, territorial governments, if they're focused on bringing their spending here, then there may be an opportunity there for us to continue to grow that quantity. Yeah, absolutely. There's so much innovation. There's so much entrepreneurial spirit and collaborative spirit across the business community within Canada and particularly in the Indigenous community. So if this is that opportunity, one door closes and a window opens, maybe a few windows open, how do we take advantage of that? So when it comes to outside of everything that's happening in this uncertain period, are there specific barriers that you're finding Indigenous entrepreneurs and businesses are facing when it comes to accessing the capital that they need to grow, new markets for the purpose of expansion, and even just the resources that they need to grow their businesses and grow those sectors? Yeah, so first I'll say that yesterday I spoke at a Racial Equity and Justice Conference, and yesterday was a focus of Indigenous voices. Unfortunately, racism is still alive and well here in Canada, more so in some regions than others, but Indigenous businesses are still, in some cases, at a disadvantage if they proudly say that they're an Indigenous business. And I know there's been a lot of talk about, you know, the advantages that you have as certifying as an Indigenous business. But there are some areas and we have some members that have told me that they have two business cards, one that proudly says they're Indigenous and one that doesn't. And in some spaces they need to use to get their foot in their door, they need to use the one that says they are not. So, you know, we still have to continue to work against the biases that exist. And I think there's also still, you know, a bias of thinking that Indigenous businesses are like the smoke shack on the reserve. So we're continuing to educate that there are. The stereotypes. Yes. Yeah. Or sometimes we get a response of like, oh, I would love to, you know, use an Indigenous business, but I can't find any. Which, you know, that's what we're here for. And that's the work that we're doing. And things are definitely changing. But that's still definitely a barrier that exists. and then access to capital is still one of the largest barriers that every one of our members speaks about and part of that you know for on reserve first nation businesses is because we don't own the land so having collateral using land as collateral is not an option when going to the bank and there are a number of banks who are working on small business support programs for Indigenous businesses, and some particularly who are looking at what options they can use for those particular on-reserve First Nation members. But even just, you know, a lot of First Nation, Métis, Inuit people don't have a long generational history relationship with a bank. So they're still, you know, when the COVID programs first came out, the emergency benefit, business benefit program required you to have a relationship with the bank and only 35 percent of Indigenous businesses that we reported had that 35 percent yeah so some of them were funded so there's that immediate disadvantage exactly yeah so we did we did manage to get that program changed to allow for that um but there still definitely is a an access to capital issue for communities too and I think the National Loan Guarantee Program we you know supported that with many other Indigenous organizations that's definitely making a difference we see the work out of Infrastructure Bank definitely making a difference as well on large-scale projects but for a small medium entrepreneur of which you know 98% of Indigenous businesses are there's still difficulty in getting access to capital. There's still work to be done yeah. And then I think I think just as importantly as financial capital is social capital you know if I think about my boys who grew up in Toronto and their friends and their friends parents and where their friends parents work right very different than my upbringing and very different than many First Nation Métis and Inuit children who whose families you know might not know the CEO of Amex no likely not right so if you're a young person trying to start a business yeah where do you go to like ask the question or where do you go to get your foot in the door or what opportunities have you have you had so that social capital I think to me is just as important and through our events and our networking opportunities and our larger events we're really trying to like change the way the room looks yeah and build some opportunities for relationships that maybe those based on you know where they live or their upbringing they just haven't had that they haven't had those networks available to them yeah so I can see that being a huge benefit to what your organization is doing yeah so we will be launching a connects program which we had a mentorship program before I was there I joined but the connects program was a little different and that it's really just that making that one connection so we'll have leaders we're calling them and learners so individuals that are like just wanting a foot in the door or someone to talk to about insurance or maybe it's about i really want to talk to someone at metrolinks as an example and if we have someone who's willing to have a coffee even if it's a virtual coffee then we'll make that one connection and then maybe that person opens their social network to other people and it doesn't have to be an ongoing relationship with a mentor and a mentee it's just that like opening that one door absolutely other opportunities so little plug how would someone get involved in that in that program we will be opening registration for both leaders and learners we wanted to make sure we weren't you know in some ways people have opportunity to learn from each other so um we did spend some work on coming up how we were going to name the two opportunities but we will be opening intake into that through our website and we'll put out information on that. Great. Well, let us know and we'll definitely share with our network. We have some great mentors and leaders who, you know, are part of the board in our community. Yeah. It sounds like that would be a great opportunity. I mean, I do find with mentorship, it's you often learn as much as you offer. Yes. Yeah. And I'll say, you know, even now, like in my role now, I never imagined that I would be where I am today and know, be in conversation with the people that I am. You know, so if someone's like, oh, I'm looking for this. I'll say, oh, I know somebody like that. And then I'll say to my husband, I can't believe I'm in this position where I can connect people. I mean, it's a great gift of where I am today. Yeah, it's incredible. Well, and it's great that you see that as a gift too. Yeah. OK, well, so we're talking about connections and people and networks. And so my next question was actually related to partnerships and broader partnerships Indigenous businesses and the private sector and government and so maybe you can unpack a little bit how what role do those kinds of partnerships play in really opening the door and addressing some of the barriers that you just spoke of yeah I think so firstly capacity building you know and if I go back to the time when I was in energy we looked at some of those renewable projects you First, government incented corporate Canada, our non-Indigenous business, to find an Indigenous partner, to work with an Indigenous partner in order to be successful in getting opportunity in the renewable energy space. That incentivizing from the government was very important in that role to get corporations to really start the work. That was now 10 more years ago. And then it was, you know, partially the capacity building on both sides as well, but even the opportunity for a corporation to lend their support in building some of the capacity around business. And then the Indigenous community providing their learning and capacity around sustainability and the land that the project was being built on. And then, you know, we see a lot and talk a lot about joint ventures, and there's been a lot of media of late asking or questioning the value of joint ventures. We definitely see that there are a lot of successful joint ventures. Why do you think it's being questioned? I think because there are, and there have been people who have taken advantage of processes and programs that support that. So where the Indigenous partner in the joint venture is not actually involved in the organization, if they're just putting their name towards the joint venture versus really getting benefit from it, if that was the purpose of the program, where they don't have control or they're not really involved. And we definitely have seen examples of that. And unfortunately, those are the examples that get more attention in media than the successful ones. I like to tell my team about when I, very, very early in my communications career, going to an orientation session where a journalist was speaking to the group put up their hand. I was working for government at the time and they said, you know, we do so many incredible, incredible things here in the government and there's so much good work, but you never cover that. You only cover when things go wrong. And the reporter said, well, I don't cover planes that land. And so it's just something as a, you know, as a business professional, it's something I've always kept in my mind. But it's true across so many different initiatives. And it's a shame sometimes that the negative coverage overshadows all of the great benefit and value and opportunity that comes from incentives and collaboration and programs like that. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, too, if you think about larger procurement opportunities for a smaller business or even a medium-sized business to be able to answer that opportunity, they're just not big enough or don't have the capacity, not from a, like, skill or professional point of view, but they're just not large enough to respond. So if you can partner with a larger business and respond to that together and get to do that work and the experience, then your business can grow and hopefully you buy out that joint venture. And we've seen lots of examples of that as well. Boucher in the Fort McMurray area is a prime example of that where they originally were part of a joint venture and then they bought out their partner and now they're 100% Indigenous-owned, extremely successful construction firm. But, you know, we see large procurements. There's also some barriers around bid bonding, as an example, and a small, medium business might not have that. It's also this, like, chicken and an egg situation, right? Like, procurement is asking you, have you done this work before, or do we know you, and if you haven't, how do you get in the door? So from that perspective, partnerships are incredibly important. And then, you know, when we look at infrastructure, resource extraction or energy or communities are moving way beyond impact benefit agreements and they want to be have an equity stake in these. Very true. Yeah. And as I said before, there's a benefit to those projects to have for them having equity stake. But how do we get the support for them to be able to get to that equity position? You know, Hydro One here in Ontario has made incredible commitments to ensuring that they will provide opportunities for equity, ownership of Indigenous communities wherever their transmission lines of a certain size are being built. But they're also going the further step at looking at how can we help support financing that equity position from the community perspective. And in some ways that might take government to step in. Yeah, it's no longer just here's the 25 jobs that come from this temporary transitory project. It's that longer lasting equity that is really where we need to be going. Yeah, and that can be reinvested back into communities and other businesses. So you spoke at one about Boucher and that success story there. Are there other successful collaborations that you can point to that you think stand as best practice or case studies that we should be really paying a little more attention to and learning from? You know, there's so many partnerships that I think have been so successful. When you think about some of the partnerships where, you know, they've had to, like Six Nations Solar Project with Ennastore as an example, that's a project that they've been working at together for a very long time, you know, and through different energy priorities in Ontario as well. To me, that's such a success story because they stuck it out together as partners. You know, and now they will be building an energy storage facility there backed by government support from a revenue perspective. And Six Nations Economic Development and Matt Jamieson leading that space has done so much work in the energy sector that they really are a leader that many communities are looking towards from their original solar projects back a number of years ago to this project that they're doing today. Yeah, that's great. So if you were to give some advice to non-Indigenous businesses and leaders and some of the partners that you're working with with your organization, are there any steps that you think, actionable steps, that they should be taking to really support the economic development of Indigenous communities and projects and the reconciliation efforts that come along with that. So besides joining CCIB. Yes point number one. Point number one. You know it's a journey for every organization and every individual and while we have a number of programs you know we definitely would like point out our pair program because it really is meant to help support corporations through their process. It looks at four different pillars across your organization from business development, so what is your procurement policy from Indigenous business, do you have targets, are you measuring that, to also potentially partnerships or joint ventures, to mentorship. So we have a program with GDLS in defense right now where they have five Indigenous businesses a year that they help mentor through defense procurement. So working with those businesses to help them build capacity around how to respond to a defense program, what type of requirements might they need. Which tend to be pretty complex. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And with the defense spending growing in Canada, it's a real opportunity for Indigenous businesses to be in. So that's kind of the business development pillar. Then there's also a pillar around employment. So how are you, do you have a employment policy about Indigenous people. So not just a target that you're trying to reach, but, you know, how does it reflect it in your interviewing? Is there succession planning and support around ensuring that you have Indigenous people in some of those leadership roles and executive positions, retention, potentially, you know, Indigenous employee group to help support Indigenous employees in the organization? And then community relations. So how are you working with the communities that you might be impacting as a resource extraction company, definitely, but also in an urban setting, ensuring that you're supporting community initiatives, that you're doing cultural awareness training within your own organization, education in your own organization, and then leadership actions, which are really like, how are you out there working to support Indigenous business and communities? So all of those areas are part of the PEAR program. We understand that not every organization in and work on all those areas at the same time. So I would say any one of those areas is a place to start. The PAIR program is set up that there are three phases, and it's expected that it would take three years before you get to the certification. But again, we have some members, corporations, who are very supportive of the work we do, who do great work with Indigenous communities, but aren't quite ready to take on a program, a certification program. So then we would, you know, procurement is a really easy first step to make a huge impact. And it's especially now when people are really looking at their balance sheets. It's not about like spending more money. It's about looking at where you're currently purchasing and where is there an Indigenous business that perhaps you could spend that money with instead. Yeah. And I think now more than ever, there's probably more appetite to really to look into those those avenues and those opportunities. Yes, definitely. So, you know, we've really been pushing buying Indigenous, but we just launched a Buy Indigenous to Buy Canadian campaign and a logo that can be downloaded that anybody could use to help really support organizations and individual Canadians to find Indigenous suppliers. That's great. So I want to bring it back to energy. And you talked about just the huge opportunities that exist for Indigenous business to really play not just a role but a leading role in the green economy and the growth of the green economy and the energy transition that we're going through. And I wonder if you could tell me a little bit more about your vision for how that is a positive opportunity for the entire Indigenous, like the business economy and what it means for Indigenous business. Yeah, I think, you know. It's a big question. That's okay. I'll start with, you know, what I saw in Ontario. Ontario was really a leader in clean energy and moving off of coal and moving to renewable energy. And at the time, a lot of communities weren't necessarily prepared to partner on a project. And some of the incentives that were built into the procurement processes weren't quite enough or weren't really helping to get those projects off the ground. And we came a long way over the time of the various different iterations of the procurement. I think at the end when I left IESO, more than 50% of the First Nations in Ontario, of which there are 134, were a partner on a renewable project. Which really shows that there was an interest there, that capacity was starting to be built, that those communities could help support other communities. The other program that we supported was a community energy plan, which helped communities do their own engagement work in their community about their own energy issues and potential solutions, but also where did they want to be involved. And there were some communities who were very opposed to anything going into their river, so any hydroelectric project was not something that they would support. But they had already built that community consensus. Into their plans? Yes, into their plans. So they were prepared if there was a partner that came to them wanting to partner. Right. It's unfortunate, and that was about the time that I left, that we stopped procuring from a renewable. I think we're moving back again, as I, you know, to think back to the battery storage project at Six Nations. But I saw such opportunity there in just ensuring that communities were leading the way and how they wanted to see energy in their community or where they wanted to support. And, you know, knowing the differences in Ontario, and not to get too engineering geeky on the podcast, but... We like geeky here, don't worry. Not every area in Ontario needed energy. Right. But there were opportunities for communities to partner in other places and then use that revenue to invest back in other businesses in their province. And I think as we talk about transmission lines and new energy conversion across the country, we're seeing more and more communities be part of that solution. And they do bring so much support to the project, but also from having, as an energy conversion, renewable energy, you're doing that because you're trying, you believe in the climate and supporting Mother Earth. And we've seen some really great opportunities by using Indigenous workers on those projects, using people from the community on the project, Indigenous businesses being able to supply to that project, in helping to ensure that the project is even more sustainable than just the conversion of energy. Right. So less impact on the land where the turbines or whatever it might be are placed, reclamation after all the construction is over. You know, that long-term commitment to the community and to the land brings additional opportunity as well. Yeah, sustainability is about so much more than just the green side of sustainability. Yes. Yeah, it's the long-term. Yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, as we start to wrap up here, are there any just key takeaways or that vision that you want to leave with some of our listeners today? We've covered a lot. Yes. But, you know, if one or two things really stick in their head, what would you want that to be? I think, you know, it's a few things. One, I would say it's understandable that people are hesitant to talk about Indigenous reconciliation or history in the country. And I would say that it does take courage and it takes us as Canadians to be courageous and open about having conversations and to not be afraid to ask those questions and have those conversations. And the second I would say is that there is an opportunity for every Canadian, be you a consumer, about where you buy, be it an investor, about looking at what companies you invest with and what is their relationship with Indigenous people and communities. As shareholders, we've seen shareholder proxies push corporations to do better with Indigenous procurement or communities. Even as a purchaser within your organization, you know, asking the question, is there an opportunity here to buy from an Indigenous business or to partner? We've seen a lot of movement on boards and having more Indigenous people on boards, but it can't just be the Indigenous person in the room asking those questions. So whether you're ready to, like, fully go out and speak about supporting Indigenous business and economy or you're, you know, want to take it one step at a time, there's an opportunity for every individual to make a difference. Yeah, and I think that's really encouraging. Sometimes it is one step at a time, but there's many different steps you could take and start with. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Tabitha, thank you so, so much for coming in and talking with us today. And it's really inspiring and really encouraging some of the insights that you've shared with us and some of the advice that I think we can share with our broader membership and our broader business community here in Toronto. I think that people don't always realize how large and strong the Indigenous community is here in the Toronto region and it's pretty impactful. So thank you for all of your work and everything you're doing and for joining us.- Yes, thanks for the opportunity.- That's all for this episode of Toronto Talks. If you like what you hear, don't forget to tell a friend. It's still the best way to spread our message. And don't forget to keep talking Toronto. Our voice drives meaningful change.